The first thing you can do is get the concept of ‘naughty kids’ out of your head. You can surgically remove the idea of ‘good kids’ while you’re at it. I believe this thinking, that there are two types of children – one ‘good’ and the other ‘naughty’ – is the source of more stress in families than anything else.
It’s not the children. It’s not even what children do – though for sure that can be frustrating at times. It’s our thinking about it.
I was a good kid!
In my up-bringing a ‘good’ kid was an obedient one who:
- learned the social rules of politeness and applied them without question
- did whatever adults asked (parents, teachers, clergy – but not strangers, especially men)
- never complained
- rarely asked for anything (asking for a glass of water was acceptable!).
And they grow up into good adults who:
- maintain the ‘culture’ by following the unwritten rules of behaviour
- do whatever authority figures ask (parents, bosses, clergy, the government, even the taxman – but get suspicious when strangers ask)
- never openly complain, no matter how tedious, obnoxious or soul destroying the task at hand
- rarely ask for anything (buying stuff is acceptable!).
In fact, I was a very obedient child and for a while an equally obedient adult. I still get a bit nervous around authority figures (if I pass a member of the police force I still feel a pang of guilt, even though I KNOW I’ve got nothing to hide) but I gave up being good and nice a long time ago. You could even say I tend to live a very ‘naughty’ life.
No sniggering, please! That’s not what I meant! See? Even the word has been taken and twisted around so that it’s really not ‘appropriate’ to describe myself as naughty.
I don’t know about you, but being naughty seems far more attractive than being ‘good’. At least if it means questioning everything, treating myself as at least as important as anyone else, standing up for myself and only doing things that have meaning.
Encouraging the naughtiness
As a parent, I encourage the rebellious side of my children. I can’t say it’s always easy or enjoyable and I do wonder sometimes if it’s the right approach. I’m also often fighting my own up-bringing and pressure from others. But I want my kids to:
question the world and not accept things just because I say so
hold their head up high and make decisions for themselves, not because it’s expected of them
learn how to ask for what they need in life and not suffer silently for lack of those things
be compassionate to everyone – even strangers
do everything they do because they see the meaning in it not out of fear
Everything they do is part of their learning process, and I want to respect that and be there to protect them if they go too far. To be there to help them develop a strong sense of self and a clear and deep set of values to live by.
So I’ve removed good and naughty from my vocabulary.
There is a line, of course.
And that’s where they stop valuing the people around them. That stage of ‘screw you’ rebelliousness, often accompanying puberty, is a tricky path to navigate but there is a line. Naughty becomes ‘unacceptable’ when people are at risk of getting hurt in some way.
What to do with ‘naughty’ children?
Celebrate it.
It could be a sign they’re waking up and growing into happy and fulfilled adults!
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Hi Ian –
What a great post! I completely related in a few different ways. I too was an obedient child, and to this day, I am unable to break the chains of my ‘rule-following’ ways. In many ways, life is better without the constant fear of punishment meted out by authorities.
I do not have any children, but hope to one day. I’ve wondered about how I will find a balance between raising responsible, caring citizens of the world and raising someone who is free to pursue their own interests. I’m not sure how my plans will pan out, but I’m glad to hear that someone is having some success at it.
Hi Ian
Very nicely put! I think teaching your kids to think for themselves is such an important lesson as is critical thinking. Not just following along with society because it’s “what’s done” but because it makes sense to THEM.
These are things Gwynn and I will be trying to teach our boys…I hope we’ll be successful!
I agree. Unless a child is doing something harmful, their curiousity and sense of adventure should be encouraged.
Hi Ian,
I don’t have kids yet.I do consider it a full time job when I do. I believe a child should be nurtured to make their own decisions. My parents, were tough on some things and I rebelled. I found out they were right.
The important thing is for a child to learn is not to be sheeple, but be their own person. Following a crowd isn’t fitting in only taking away from your own identity.
Very interesting topic.
My daughter is headstrong. In fact, her speech therapist described her as the most difficult child she’s ever worked with. Stubborn, opinionated, nearly impossible to manipulate into the behaviors one wants from her. In a way it’s horribly maddening (because she doesn’t like doing verbal drills, and thus at nearly five years old is very far behind in speech development) but even her speech therapist said it was a GOOD quality, a quality that means that once she is able to self-direct her life she will inevitably be quite successful and driven. The problem is for me, as a parent, to get through the next thirteen years without wanting to break her spirit. I WANT her to know what she wants, to make her own choices, to be willing to have a strong backbone even in the face of being punished or manipulated by authority figures.
But it certainly does make parenting her trickier!
Wonderful post, Ian! One of my goals as a parent has always been to help my daughter think for herself, and to stand up for what she believes in, even against authority. At 13, she’s growing into quite the little rebel, and i couldn’t be prouder!
I really enjoyed this post, Ian, so thank you! Even though I don’t have children, I could relate to your tale of being “the good child,” and I still get the eeby-jeebies when a cop’s around — I know I haven’t done anything wrong, but I’m still antsy. Like you, I’ve learned over the years to be “naughty.” It’s wonderfully freeing.
Can you share with us, perhaps in a new post (?), some of the ways you’re helping your kids develop this more thoughtful, critical, less sheep-y approach to life?
If there is one thing I succeed in in this life, I sincerely hope it is to raise ‘naughty’ children!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The idea that we teach our children to obey without question is terrifying. Your reasons for encouraging rebellion in your children are beautiful, Ian, and I share these values as a parent myself.
There is also another reason “good” and “nice” are not words or attributes I teach my children.
Most perpetrators of child abuse are people known to the child – not strangers, as many people may think. It might be easier for a child to say no to a stranger, but what about to an adult in a position of power???
If someone is trying to do something unreasonable or sinister with my child, I don’t want them to hear my voice telling them to “be good” or “play nice” or “do as you’re told”. I want them to hear my voice telling them to look, listen, use their minds to think about what is happening and listen if their body is telling them NO.
Hi Ian.
This is a very ballsy post, because questioning the way people raise their children is a surefire way to start arguments with some. People just “know” that they know exactly how to raise a child, and oftentimes, the only explanation that they can offer for why it should be done a certain way is because “That’s how I was raised”.
I think that the number one problem with the way people raise children is that they want to have a well behaved kid, and not a kid who grows into a well rounded adult. I don’t know what it’s like across the pond, but here in the U.S.A., children aren’t really considered to be real people. They aren’t held responsible for their actions, they have precious few rights, and adults take very little stock in their futures, only how they act in the present time is important.
When I have kids, my only real rule is going to be “Don’t disrespect me or mother”. They’ll be allowed to say whatever they want to me or ask whatever, as long as it’s respectful. I want my kids to respect other people from this example, and I hope that they learn to question the status quo and to think for themselves.
You are getting a standing ovation over here!!
I want my children to be fierce, independent, noncomformist.
P.S. I totally agree with Trey. We don’t consider children to be ‘real people’.
I agree, I could ask nothing more from my children than to make their own conclusions, especially on the subject of religion. I was raised in a strict Pentecostal household, where wearing makeup was alone enough to consider me of the devil. When I grew up and realized I dont agree with everything I was taught, it opened my eyes to a completely different world. Me and my husband agreed that we would teach all religion to our kids, and allow them to draw their own conclusions on the subject.
Bravo, Ian… Funny, I was just writing a chapter about precisely this issue for my book on parenting. Perhaps I could just copy-past your stuff, it would save me so much work…
On the serious note, I agree completely. Of course. I believe one of the crucial points is to realize that our lives, this is to say lives of us, parents, are really not more important or of a higher value then kids’. As Trey is pointing out. So to teach them to behave is really just enforcing our own values down on them, training them to be obedient etc… Sucking life out of them.
Because by assigning a label of goodness to a child (or anybody out there) is really saying that he or she is behaving just the way I want them to behave, like a nice little object in my own life. And being bad means that they are not performing according to my expectations. It is like a good car, a bad bicycle, a good jacket, a bad computer software… Horrible to think about other individuals in that way, isn’t it?
However, Trey, your comment on your rule makes me wonder:
rule sound’s like a demand. So, if they respect you the way you want to be respected, are they going to be considered as good, and if they don’t respect you, are they going to be seen as naughty? I am afraid if kids respect their parent because the parent demands to be respected, they will choose to do it out of perverted reasons: they may decide to show respect in order to get acceptance and love from their parents. Buying it by giving away their authenticity…
I, as a parent of three (all teenagers) would definitely not want to be respected as a rule, but do tell them often that I do need respect, that it is very important part of my interactions and that if they do this and that it would help me feel more respected. And then I ask them whether they would enjoy helping me feel respected. And they always say YES, SURE, providing that they themselves feel fully understood from my side.
But, speaking of rules, I do have a rule in MY OWN MIND: and this is that I want to be totally respectful toward my kids, no matter what.
And I am happy to say that there is a lot of joyful respect in our house.
Hi Robert,
Parenting is no easy task, and there’s no simple solution for problems, is there? I wouldn’t want my kids to just show me respect as a way to gain acceptance with me. However, a lot of times, kids aren’t able to make the logical conclusions for why they are taught the things that they are. For example, I was taught as a kid to not interrupt adults when they are speaking. Now, on first impression, this seems like a way to keep kids from being annoying, but now, as an adult, I realize that it’s polite to wait for people to get done with their conversation before you start a new one. This is something that more people should do.
I wouldn’t shun my children if they were disrespectful, but when they are young, I would probably punish them for being disrespectful. Once they got older, I’d probably move into a more logical way to encourage them to be respectful.
Respect goes a long way in the real world, and the way a child treats their parents will usually have a big effect on the way they treat people that influence them in the real world. I’d want to encourage my kids to disagree with me whenever they want, and to feel free to call me out on something if they think I am wrong, but to always do so in a respectful manner.
I know that some new age parents want to raise their children to be equal with them, and that’s fine for them. However, we still live in a world of hierarchy, and I would want my kids to know that they couldn’t cross me. Maybe that IS a demand… I don’t know. But in the real world, you can get fired, arrested, or killed for being disrespectful to the wrong person, so that is why I would make that my primary rule.
Trey, I am afraid that by punishing them for being disrespectful (or for anything else) you would teach them that it is ok if a more powerful abuses his power over weaker individual. Because I suspect you would not punish Mike Tyson if he was disrespectful, but your kids you would. So I am afraid by this you would teach them misusing the power over.
Another thing is, would you enjoy being punished by me, for instance, if I evaluated that you were being disrespectful. Would you consider this to be a respectful way of treating you? Would you respect me more? Or, in other words, would you consider punishing your kids a respectful way of treating them? For instance, I see punishing children as a very disrespectful way of treating them. Meaning that again what you would teach your kids is that it is OK for a powerful person to be disrespectful, but not for a powerless person.
Another question is also who says what is respectful and what is not? I may behave in a way that I find totally respectful, yet you may feel you are not being respected. So, is it alright that you just go ahead and punish me?
What I am trying to say, in short, is that I believe dialogue is the way, hearing each other’s needs and feelings, not punishment and demands. Then we can come to the point when we respect each other not out of fear of punishment, but out of real and genuine respect, respect, that can not be enforced.
Robert, this is simply where you and I disagree. I am more than familiar with the ideas and concepts of TCS (Taking Children Seriously) And I simply don’t subscribe to them. I WANT my children to know that you can’t talk your way out of everything, and that when they cross a certain line, they will get reprimanded, sometimes violently. That’s the way the world works in this day and age, like it or not. I understand what you are telling me, but I respectfully disagree.
And parents are being evaluated all of the time in this day and age, and sometimes have their children taken away from them… unjustly. This is the same way that a powerful person (Such as a judge) is disrespectful to a powerless person (Such as a parent). It’s not fair, but it’s the way of the world.
And wars have been waged, and people have died over the issue of the differences of peoples’ opinions. Nothing has changed, it is still happening. In this day and age, one person’s opinion of respect can and will get them hurt. Not every violent encounter is between two violent participants. It just takes one. No amount of dialogue is going to bring peace to the middle east. No amount of dialog is going to restore the values of the United States to the government, which were instilled through a violent revolution I might add. Sometimes, talking just doesn’t work. Maybe it will in the future, but in this day and age, it won’t. And I don’t want my children to think it’s okay to be disrespectful to whoever they want in such a volatile world.
However, I admire the efforts of the TCS movement. I hope one day that we can live in a world where we can talk through our differences.
Trey, I understand that you need to be respected and that you also want to contribute to the well-being of your kids by teaching them to behave in a respectful way in order not to be hurt by violent people in this violent world.
However, I believe respect goes both ways, not just from kids to parents. And I believe we teach children about respect not by demanding it and punishing them, but by actually doing and living the respect, by treating them respectfully. By demands and punishments we are actually showing and teaching them disrespect. We are being the disrespectful and the violent ones.
I am also sad to hear you say that no amount of dialogue si going to bring peace to the Middle East. I believe the lack of the real dialogue is keeping the peace away from this and from any other area of our planet. Attempts to enforce certain values and to punish those who do not submit to those values, this is what seems to be keeping the violence and war and suffering there. I believe the true dialogue, with people eagerly hearing each other’s needs and values, yes, this sort of dialogue is the only thing that actually can help. But it is not happening.
I too, like you, hope one day we can live in a world where we can talk through our differences. However, I also believe it is you and me who are creating this new world right now. And I don’t believe we are creating a better world by demanding respect from our kids and punishing them violently when they don’t submit to our demands. This way we are just reaffirming the old violent world, the world where the strong have the power over the weak.
Anyway, our kids will be the only ones who will be evaluating our parenting strategies, when they grow up. Will they be grateful because they were being demanded the respect and punished when failed to comply with the demands, or will they be grateful because they were treated as individuals of an equal worth, with their need for respect being of an equal value as their parents’ need for respect, and because they were taught respect by being shown the respect, by being treated respectfully…, well, this remains to be seen.
Thanks for this Ian. I know it’s been very useful for me to inquire into what I mean when I think of something I’ve done as “good” — does it mean that I’ve lived up to my parents’ standards, for instance? Or think about the opposite when I have it that I’ve been “bad.” Those concepts of morality tend to unravel when I take a serious look at them.
I’m delighted this post has generated so much discussion … and have been enjoying the exchanges especially between Robert and Trey. So I’ll start by commenting on this:
@Trey I’ll just pick up on one point you made which I believe to be core to moving to greater peace at home and in the world. I agree with you that dialogue by itself is often not enough, whether with kids or with global conflicts and that action is often needed. This is especially true where there is an imbalance of power and the more powerful (e.g. parents are usually bigger than children!) uses violence. The ‘weaker’ has two options when faced with the use of violence, physical or otherwise, and that’s to fight back in some way or to submit – out of fear.
I consider ‘punishment’ to be a form of violence and I can’t agree that it’s ever appropriate.
Weaker sides usually have limited ways to fight back, so with kids it might be hiding what they’re doing, lying, bullying or pushing parents’ buttons. And submission out of fear only ‘works’ while there’s a power imbalance – and kids have a nasty habit of growing up to be stronger than their parents! So purely on a practical level I don’t believe violent action (or the threat of it) ever ‘works’. I believe it’s even less helpful on other levels (psychological, spiritual etc.).
I do think there’s another kind of action though that is effective. The great nonviolent movements of the last century showed that it’s possible to take action while still retaining compassion for the other side. In these cases it was action to get dialogue moving and was by the weaker sides. There’s no reason why nonviolent action can’t be used by the more powerful side as well. For me, intention is critical here.
Punishment intends to hurt the other side as retribution.
Nonviolent action intends to get the other party to listen, to dialogue and to work out a solution that meets both sides’ needs. Non co-operation is a great example … I know my little one can be very demanding and it drives her crazy when I choose not to co-operate with her. I make it clear that I want us to agree together .. and I’m not going to co-operate until she’s ready to talk and listen. It takes longer than punishment, but works much better.
I’ll also use force if she’s in danger or is trying to hurt me. She went through a nasty period of kicking me when she didn’t get her way (I think she picked that up at kindergarten) and I’d just grab her feet until she stopped and verbally made it clear that this was not acceptable. She stopped after a couple of weeks.
The only times I punish her (verbally, never physically) is when I’m not at peace in myself and taking out frustration or anger on her. I’m only human after all! I hate it when that happens and really work hard to stay grounded.
@Robert Well .. you put these points across so much better than I could. I agree with everything you write – with the one exception about action (see my comment to Trey) .. but I suspect that’s simply because you didn’t write about it rather than a difference of opinion.
I especially like the point you make about it going two ways – not just respect but everything. We want our kids to be so many things we struggle with ourselves. It’s almost like a parental urge to mold our children into more perfect versions of ourselves – when it comes to values especially. And the hypocrisy that leads to is, I believe, incredibly confusing for children. They learn from what we do, not what we say. If I’m respectful, loving, kind, peaceful in action – that’s what they’ll learn. They won’t learn it by me telling them to be those things or beating it into them.
I’m laughing at my comment here about holding my daughter’s feet. Of course, I didn’t hold them for 2 weeks as it might have sounded! Oh .. you know what I meant!
@Vi Thanks! Not sure if I’m being successful or not. My kids would probably have a view on that! And we can parent in isolation .. so even if I am getting it wrong there are plenty of others involved who can compensate.
@Sherri I’m sure you are being successful!
@Crafters Thanks. And they do get into dangerous situations and it’s not always easy to know what point to step in.
@Bunny ‘Sheeple’ .. lovely. I’d not heard that word before but it’s very apt!
@Lindsey Well, I guess no-one claimed parenting was easy! In fact I imagine having a sheep for a child would be even harder because you always have to know the answers and know what to do.
@Jay Having seen some pictures of you and your daughter on your blog I can say you are a lucky father, and she is a lucky daughter! You look great together.
@Chania Girl Thanks! And I’d love to share some tips and suggestions (and hear others’). I’ll add this to my list of future posts!
@Alison Thanks for raising this point about child abuse … it’s really an important one. And one of the terrifying consequences of teaching obedience to children. Obedience relies on the one being obeyed having the child’s best interests at heart .. and that is not always the case!
@Hayden So you’re going to raise your children in your own image then?
LOL
@Hollie It’s funny how we always learn from our parents … just not always what they expected or wanted!
@Chris I suspect that most concepts we take as understood tend to unravel when we look at them closely!
In the spirit of talking about “demanding respect”, I thought I’d share a little anecdote from a recent experience at my daughter’s preschool. My daughter was told to stay at the table for speech drills, and told her teacher she’d rather go play with Barbies. My daughter was told that the rest of the class would be staying at the table, and not to get up. So my daughter got up anyway, and was put in a time out. The teacher went to release her a few minutes later and reminded her that if she got up, she’d have to go to the table. So my daughter crossed her arms, stuck out her tongue, and sat in the time out corner until drills were over.
How could the teacher have possibly “demanded” respect? My daughter had made a choice- not a good one, but it was her choice to make. If the teacher had further punished her, it wouldn’t have made my daughter respect her more. I’m certain that spanking her, revoking privileges, or holding her in her seat for table time may have gotten her to capitulate out of necessity or fear of further action, but what the teacher actually ended up doing worked far better: she let my daughter sit there, stubbornly, every day until my daughter got tired of feeling like an outsider and decided to play along.
And I think by allowing my daughter to set some boundaries of her own, the teacher ended up winning my daughter’s grudging respect and eventual affection- and that affection has gone far, far further in my daughter’s ability to be taught than anything else.
Lindsey – thanks for this. Sounds like the key here was to give your daughter some choice in the matter. I’m not sure what speech drills are but they don’t sound any where near as much fun as playing with Barbies! For a little girl anyway. I’m not saying that I enjoy playing with Barbies.
Speech drills are pretty much repeating the same phonetic sounds over and over. My daughter is in a special preschool for kids with bad speech patterns, and they have to do a lot more rote things. It is incredibly boring for her.
I am actually proud of her being able to set her own boundaries. I think kids get mixed signals when they are told to do whatever an adult or authority figure tells them to, and then told not to do anything that makes them uncomfortable, like if someone other than their parents or a doctor tells them to undress. I teach my own kids to listen to people that matter to them, because that’s one of the ways we show we love and respect other people. They’ll listen to me and their father and grandparents, and our close friends, but everyone else has to work a little harder.
I don’t really think that’s a bad thing. It gets frustrating- especially for her teachers- but not all good things are easy.
I am at my last string. I have no idea what to do. I have a 5 and a 4 year they are both girls. They used to be great little girls and do nothing wrong. This past year they have been terrible. They never mind me or their father. They are always fight, hitting and yelling at each other. I can not control them. What am i supposed to do. i can not handle it we tried putting them in time out, we spank them and nothing is working. I need help.
i lOVED this article because whenever my kids cry, their unlces or father or grandma states, “don’t cry, you’re a good kid.” they cry because they need something and when you are 4-5 months thats your form of communication.
At that age they have virtually no other way to communicate … and I think from an evolutionary point of view the cry of a baby is designed to get attention! And it works very well, provided we have the capacity to hear the cry for what it is.
Wow! There are a ton of naughty ill mannered kids in my neighborhood and I really don’t praise their parents for their behavior. I had 5yr old demand I bake them cookies and then follow me around whining why I won’t do it. And this was NOT my kid. Let their own damn lazy parent bake them some cookies. My kids are polite and they have will have great self esteem when they grow. I can’t see letting your kid run around being a bratty monster as a great thing. People are so politically correct they are scared to say the wrong word a person but they will let their kids ruin others dinners running around restaurants, breaking things in stores and being down right obnoxious. But hey, whatever floats your boat, just keep your “naughty” kids away from mine and my yard.
Hi Mama-oh
I wouldn’t praise the parents or the children for the examples of behaviour you give either. And I sure don’t enjoy being taken for granted, demanded to do things or having my nice peaceful dinner disturbed by kids running around breaking things and making a noise. I don’t consider any of those examples of what I would regard as:
“be compassionate to everyone – even strangers” and I don’t want my kids doing these things.
On the other hand I wouldn’t write those kids off (and their parents) as ‘naughty ill mannered kids’ or ‘bratty monsters’. They are human beings learning how to grow up .. and that’s sometimes painful for you and me. Parenting is also a tough job and what worked for you and your kids (as it seems to have done) isn’t necessarily a formula you can apply to each and every family.
I want my kids to learn how to co-operate, fit in with those they share the world with and respect and be sensitive to others AND themselves. I’d like them to learn other things as well, of course, and most importantly I want them to do what they do because they see the value in it and they enjoy it .. NOT because they are afraid.
And I’m not naive, nor am I at all politically correct and I’m painfully well aware that there are plenty of parents who do a terrible job most of the time. And then there are the rest of us who just do a terrible job sometimes.
And I will keep my kids away from your yard .. I’d like them to be where they’re welcome
well u all sound like u no what u doing but lm yet to read anything l can relate to
Jody. I may sound like I know what I’m doing and sometimes I even think I know what I’m doing but not sure how often I really do know what I’m doing
I can only judge by how my own kids are growing up and that seems to be going wonderfully! Sorry to hear you haven’t found anything here you can relate to … and thanks for taking the time to leave a comment.